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mark61
27-04-08, 21:49
Page last updated at 11:22 GMT, Saturday, 26 April 2008 12:22 UK

The demise of Turkey's pork butchers

The role of Islam in Turkish society is a subject of continual debate. Secularists are protesting against what they see as the government's increasingly Islamic agenda, and as Sarah Rainsford found out, the latest battleground could be across the butcher's counter.

"We're going filming at a pork butcher's and a pig farm," I told my Turkish cameraman in a text message. Slightly anxious, I added: "Is that OK with you?"

A moment later a message from Gokhan flashed back.

"Yes," he wrote. "I like a good pork steak!"

He is not the only one.

Another Turkish friend told me that eating pork, which is forbidden by Islam, is increasingly popular in secular high society here.

She described this as an act of defiance by some Turks who fear religious dictates have begun creeping into their lives since a government led by devout Muslims took power.

But those people could soon be looking for a new way to rebel because Turkey's pork industry is on the brink of extinction.

Shrinking business

Lazari Kozmaoglu describes himself as the last pork butcher in Istanbul.

We met at his unmarked shop, in the shadow of a towering, Orthodox church. Outside, hungry-looking cats sat pawing the window.

As Lazari showed me round, he reminisced about the cosmopolitan Istanbul of his youth - filled with ethnic Armenians and local Greeks like himself. The days when the pork business was booming.

Many of those Christians have long since left or been forced out. But Lazari stayed on.

For more than 40 years he has been selling pork to his own fast-shrinking Christian community, to defiant Muslims, and to foreigners. Now, he is being squeezed out of business.

Lazari's being prevented from slaughtering pigs and the stock of meat in his freezer is running critically low.

He owns an abattoir but the Agriculture Ministry has refused him a license to operate it, saying it does not meet strict new regulations.

Curiously, all the other slaughter-houses that once dealt with pork have been closed too. Lazari's reluctant to say what he suspects is happening.

"There are only 2,000 Greeks left in Istanbul," he grumbled. "None of us dares speak out."

So a rare customer filled-in the gaps.

"It's all about Islam," Sami said, as the shop-assistant wrapped his sausages in greaseproof paper.

"Most people are more religious these days. They don't want to eat pork, and they don't let others produce it either."

In a typical "Istanbul" twist, the customer himself was Jewish. Behind him I spotted my Muslim colleagues - munching contentedly on ham sandwiches.

Conservative rule

Today's governing AK Party is far more conservative than my workmates.

It is extremely popular in rural Turkey, and with the new urban, religious-conservative middle-class here.

But the AKP's leaders once belonged to a more radical, pro-Islamic party, and strictly secular Turks suspect their agenda has not changed.

To such sceptics, the fate of the pork business is proof.

A couple of hours' drive towards the Bulgarian border, I found a farm that seemed at first to be thriving.


Despite an ever increasing number, Zafer is unable to sell his pigs
Trees heavy with honey-blossom did nothing to disguise the stink of some 300 pigs, snuffling through the mud for food.

"You'll find the smell addictive," Zafer the farmer laughed, as I tried in vain to block out the smell.

A lively man, with bushy brown curls, he invested heavily in his farm, spurred-on by visions of British tourists breakfasting on his bacon and diplomats barbecuing his pork chops.

But four years on, Zafer cannot sell a single animal for slaughter.

Just like Lazari with his abattoir, Zafer's farm has failed the new hygiene test.

On top of that the regulations now say you can only farm pigs, if you say which abattoir will slaughter them: Catch-22 when they have already been closed.

"The government doesn't announce out-loud that it has banned the pig farms," Zafer told me.

"But at the end of the day, that's what's happened here. They're trying to send a message to their religious constituents," he said.

Back in Istanbul, the local agriculture ministry man denied the situation's anything to do with Islam.

He insists the regulations were introduced to bring Turkey up to European standards.

"We've got no problem with pork," Ahmet Kavak told me. "The farmers just need to meet the criteria."

Hope for resolution

As evidence, he claimed the ministry was now working closely with Lazari to help open his slaughter house.

If that does finally happen - after years of fruitless negotiation - the butcher believes farmers could be lured back to the pork business.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7369520.stm
Islam on the table - Pig farmer describes his licensing regulation woes

Zafer is ready and waiting.
"This lot are eating me out of house and home," he laughed, pointing to a wriggling pile of pink and black-spotted piglets. His herd keeps on expanding.

But Zafer's passionate about pig farming, so he keeps the animals as pets, holding-out for a solution.

"The authorities thought we'd give up." Zafer told me.

Then, he continued, "at the elections, they could say: 'Look, we're Muslims, we finished-off this business,' but we're still here - and determined to solve this".

He smiled as a three-day old piglet clambered across his feet, then trotted-off after its mother across the field.

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 22:30
Page last updated at 11:22 GMT, Saturday, 26 April 2008 12:22 UK

The demise of Turkey's pork butchers

The role of Islam in Turkish society is a subject of continual debate. Secularists are protesting against what they see as the government's increasingly Islamic agenda, and as Sarah Rainsford found out, the latest battleground could be across the butcher's counter.

"We're going filming at a pork butcher's and a pig farm," I told my Turkish cameraman in a text message. Slightly anxious, I added: "Is that OK with you?"

A moment later a message from Gokhan flashed back.

"Yes," he wrote. "I like a good pork steak!"

He is not the only one.

Another Turkish friend told me that eating pork, which is forbidden by Islam, is increasingly popular in secular high society here.

She described this as an act of defiance by some Turks who fear religious dictates have begun creeping into their lives since a government led by devout Muslims took power.

But those people could soon be looking for a new way to rebel because Turkey's pork industry is on the brink of extinction.

Shrinking business

Lazari Kozmaoglu describes himself as the last pork butcher in Istanbul.

We met at his unmarked shop, in the shadow of a towering, Orthodox church. Outside, hungry-looking cats sat pawing the window.

As Lazari showed me round, he reminisced about the cosmopolitan Istanbul of his youth - filled with ethnic Armenians and local Greeks like himself. The days when the pork business was booming.

Many of those Christians have long since left or been forced out. But Lazari stayed on.

For more than 40 years he has been selling pork to his own fast-shrinking Christian community, to defiant Muslims, and to foreigners. Now, he is being squeezed out of business.

Lazari's being prevented from slaughtering pigs and the stock of meat in his freezer is running critically low.

He owns an abattoir but the Agriculture Ministry has refused him a license to operate it, saying it does not meet strict new regulations.

Curiously, all the other slaughter-houses that once dealt with pork have been closed too. Lazari's reluctant to say what he suspects is happening.

"There are only 2,000 Greeks left in Istanbul," he grumbled. "None of us dares speak out."

So a rare customer filled-in the gaps.

"It's all about Islam," Sami said, as the shop-assistant wrapped his sausages in greaseproof paper.

"Most people are more religious these days. They don't want to eat pork, and they don't let others produce it either."

In a typical "Istanbul" twist, the customer himself was Jewish. Behind him I spotted my Muslim colleagues - munching contentedly on ham sandwiches.

Conservative rule

Today's governing AK Party is far more conservative than my workmates.

It is extremely popular in rural Turkey, and with the new urban, religious-conservative middle-class here.

But the AKP's leaders once belonged to a more radical, pro-Islamic party, and strictly secular Turks suspect their agenda has not changed.

To such sceptics, the fate of the pork business is proof.

A couple of hours' drive towards the Bulgarian border, I found a farm that seemed at first to be thriving.


Despite an ever increasing number, Zafer is unable to sell his pigs
Trees heavy with honey-blossom did nothing to disguise the stink of some 300 pigs, snuffling through the mud for food.

"You'll find the smell addictive," Zafer the farmer laughed, as I tried in vain to block out the smell.

A lively man, with bushy brown curls, he invested heavily in his farm, spurred-on by visions of British tourists breakfasting on his bacon and diplomats barbecuing his pork chops.

But four years on, Zafer cannot sell a single animal for slaughter.

Just like Lazari with his abattoir, Zafer's farm has failed the new hygiene test.

On top of that the regulations now say you can only farm pigs, if you say which abattoir will slaughter them: Catch-22 when they have already been closed.

"The government doesn't announce out-loud that it has banned the pig farms," Zafer told me.

"But at the end of the day, that's what's happened here. They're trying to send a message to their religious constituents," he said.

Back in Istanbul, the local agriculture ministry man denied the situation's anything to do with Islam.

He insists the regulations were introduced to bring Turkey up to European standards.

"We've got no problem with pork," Ahmet Kavak told me. "The farmers just need to meet the criteria."

Hope for resolution

As evidence, he claimed the ministry was now working closely with Lazari to help open his slaughter house.

If that does finally happen - after years of fruitless negotiation - the butcher believes farmers could be lured back to the pork business.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7369520.stm
Islam on the table - Pig farmer describes his licensing regulation woes

Zafer is ready and waiting.
"This lot are eating me out of house and home," he laughed, pointing to a wriggling pile of pink and black-spotted piglets. His herd keeps on expanding.

But Zafer's passionate about pig farming, so he keeps the animals as pets, holding-out for a solution.

"The authorities thought we'd give up." Zafer told me.

Then, he continued, "at the elections, they could say: 'Look, we're Muslims, we finished-off this business,' but we're still here - and determined to solve this".

He smiled as a three-day old piglet clambered across his feet, then trotted-off after its mother across the field.

Verontrustend, als overwegend islamitisch land een heuse varkensfabriek en fokkerij nogal paradoxaal.

mark61
27-04-08, 22:37
Verontrustend, als overwegend islamitisch land een heuse varkensfabriek en fokkerij nogal paradoxaal.

De miljoenen toeristen en duizenden in Turkije wonende buitenlanders ff weggedacht. Plus die ca. 5000 niet-moslims in Istanboel dan.

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 22:40
De miljoenen toeristen en duizenden in Turkije wonende buitenlanders ff weggedacht. Plus die ca. 5000 niet-moslims in Istanboel dan.

Er zijn principes. Helemaal bij Turken die erom bekent staan die niet te verdoezelen.

mark61
27-04-08, 22:42
Er zijn principes. Helemaal bij Turken die erom bekent staan die niet te verdoezelen.


Yep. Het principe is dat Turkije een seculiere staat is waarin christenen en joden net zoveel rechten hebben als moslims. In principe dan :hihi:

Alleen mogen christenen geen kerken bouwen of priesters opleiden.

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 22:48
Yep. Het principe is dat Turkije een seculiere staat is waarin christenen en joden net zoveel rechten hebben als moslims. In principe dan :hihi:

Alleen mogen christenen geen kerken bouwen of priesters opleiden.

De meerderheid overwegend moslimbevolking denkt daar beslist anders over. Wat de turkse staat is en doet weet men allemaal wel. Er heerst meer een onderdrukking van de meerderheid door de minderheid, om er een beetje bij te horen. Maar de praktijk doet anders zien.

mark61
27-04-08, 22:50
De meerderheid overwegend moslimbevolking denkt daar beslist anders over. Wat de turkse staat is en doet weet men allemaal wel. Er heerst meer een onderdrukking van de meerderheid door de minderheid, om er een beetje bij te horen. Maar de praktijk doet anders zien.

Eh, en die christenen?

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 22:54
Eh, en die christenen?

Oh is dat zo dan? Wist niet dat er in een islamitisch land behoefte was aan kerken en priesteropleidingen? Behoefte aan varkensvlees blijkbaar wel.

mark61
27-04-08, 22:58
Oh is dat zo dan? Wist niet dat er in een islamitisch land behoefte was aan kerken en priesteropleidingen? Behoefte aan varkensvlees blijkbaar wel.

In Turkije wonen nog steeds duizenden Armeniers, Grieken en Assyriers. De oorspronkelijke bevolking, zogezegd. Die mogen van jou geen kerken bouwen, priesters opleiden en varkensvlees eten? Omdat de meerderheid de minderheid mag terroriseren?

Waarom sla je van die fascistische taal uit?

Ik wist niet dat er in een christelijk land als Nederland behoefte is aan moskeeen en imams. Aan halaal geslacht vlees blijkbaar wel :ego:

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 23:02
In Turkije wonen nog steeds duizenden Armeniers, Grieken en Assyriers. De oorspronkelijke bevolking, zogezegd. Die mogen van jou geen kerken bouwen, priesters opleiden en varkensvlees eten? Omdat de meerderheid de minderheid mag terroriseren?

Waarom sla je van die fascistische taal uit?

Ik wist niet dat er in een christelijk land als Nederland behoefte is aan moskeeen en imams. Aan halaal geslacht vlees blijkbaar wel :ego:

Nederland is geen islamitisch land. Turkije daarentegen wel. De islam is daar grondig verweven zodat de minderheid (met name de legerleiding) daar de grootste moeite heeft die invloed alsmaar te beperken. Bovendien zeg ik nergens dat minderheden niks mogen of doen.

mark61
27-04-08, 23:08
Maroc : “S’il y a des touristes, il faut qu’il y ait du cochon.”
Mercredi 05 mars 2008

C’est la conviction de Saïd Samouk, éleveur de cochons au Maroc. Des Marocains ou des résidents étrangers ont décidé de répondre à la demande des touristes et développent leur propre élevage. Comme le démontre ce reportage vidéo.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=1095452&ch=1335476&cl=6802924&src=fryvideo&lang=fr

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 23:11
Maroc : “S’il y a des touristes, il faut qu’il y ait du cochon.”
Mercredi 05 mars 2008

C’est la conviction de Saïd Samouk, éleveur de cochons au Maroc. Des Marocains ou des résidents étrangers ont décidé de répondre à la demande des touristes et développent leur propre élevage. Comme le démontre ce reportage vidéo.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=1095452&ch=1335476&cl=6802924&src=fryvideo&lang=fr

Nou dat wist ik al, daar ben ik trouwens hier uitgebreid op ingegaan, notabene met Ronald. Was blijkbaar tijdens je afwezigheid te Durban nog. Mijn mening is daarover al bekend.

mark61
27-04-08, 23:16
Nederland is geen islamitisch land. Turkije daarentegen wel. De islam is daar grondig verweven zodat de minderheid (met name de legerleiding) daar de grootste moeite heeft die invloed alsmaar te beperken. Bovendien zeg ik nergens dat minderheden niks mogen of doen.

Nee. Turkije is een seculier land. Staat in de grondwet. Dat mag ook wel met al die godsdiensten. 40% is geen soenniet.

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 23:19
Nee. Turkije is een seculier land. Staat in de grondwet. Dat mag ook wel met al die godsdiensten. 40% is geen soenniet.


Dat is jouw opinie, in Turkije is de belangrijkste godsdienst die van de islamitische. Dat er ook andere religies zijn is evident, dat heb je overal, maar de hoofdmoot is gewoon de islam.

1973Tanger
27-04-08, 23:48
De miljoenen toeristen en duizenden in Turkije wonende buitenlanders ff weggedacht. Plus die ca. 5000 niet-moslims in Istanboel dan.

Ik hoop dat je niet aan het beginnende altzheimer bent, maar 5000 niet-moslims in een stad zoals Istanboel met ruim 12 miljoen inwoners is geen argument Turkije als niet doende islamitisch land afdoen. :turkije:

super ick
28-04-08, 13:46
Ik hoop dat je niet aan het beginnende altzheimer bent, maar 5000 niet-moslims in een stad zoals Istanboel met ruim 12 miljoen inwoners is geen argument Turkije als niet doende islamitisch land afdoen. :turkije:

evenals jou reactie dat er geen behoefte zou zijn aan priesters.

1973Tanger
28-04-08, 13:58
evenals jou reactie dat er geen behoefte zou zijn aan priesters.

Mijn reactie (waarnaar jij verwijst) was dan ook wijzelijk in de vragende vorm. Mijn reactie (waarop jij quote) is daarentegen geen vraag of opmerking maar een feit.