"Collateral damage " is no different than targeted killing ! by Robert Fisk !

[Sallahddin]

"Collateral damage " is not much different from targeted killing :

By: Robert Fisk : originally posted at the independent : :

oct. 11, 2008 :

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081011_collateral_damage_not_much_different_from _targeted_killing/

The coalition forces' & especially the US forces' indiscriminate & deliberate air_strikes on civilians as a revenge for the killing of its own soldiers in Irak & Afghanistan is not much different than targeted killing under Saddam :

the coalition forces & the US are guilty of war crimes & crimes against humanity ...

these repulsive actions are not much different from the targeted killings under Saddam ...





Well; let me not 'bout ur opinions on the matter : i'd appreciate that indeed :

Thanks !

:zwaai:

[Soldim]

Well; let me not 'bout ur opinions on the matter : i'd appreciate that indeed :



't Hele artikel posten maakt opinie vorming makkelijker:


‘Collateral Damage’ Not Much Different From Targeted Killing

Posted on Oct 11, 2008

All kinds of horrors flop on to my Beirut doormat. There’s The Independent’s mobile phone bill, a slew of blood-soaked local Lebanese newspapers—“Saleh Aridi’s blood consolidates [Druze] reconciliation”, was among the goriest of the past few days—and then there are files from the dark memory lane through which all Middle East history has to pass.

The repulsive Baath party archives of Saddam Hussein are the latest to find a place on my coffee table, all marked “Secret”, unpublished—though they formed the basis for the old man’s trial and for his depraved hanging by the Iraqi government more than two years ago. I reprint them now without excuse, for they have a bitter taste in the “new” Iraq and in the “new” Afghanistan about which we still fantasise as we send more Nato troops into Asia’s greatest military graveyard.

The documentary evidence of Saddam’s brutal inquiry into the killings at the Shia Muslim village of Dujail in 1982 provides frightening, fearful testament to the earnestness and cruelty of totalitarianism, the original files of Saddam’s mukhabarat security services in their hunt for the men who tried to assassinate the Iraqi dictator more than a quarter of a century ago. Saddam was then the all-powerful leader of a nation at war with Iran—an eight-year conflict that would cost the lives of more than a million Muslims on both sides—and whose most ruthless enemies were members of the Iranian-supported Al-Dawa Party (including a certain Nouri al-Maliki). Saddam’s closest allies at this time were the Gulf oil sheikhdoms—and the United States, which was sending military supplies, chemical precursors and satellite reconnaissance photographs to Baghdad to assist Saddam in his war against Iran, a nation he had invaded two years earlier.

On his passage through Dujail, Saddam’s heavily armed convoy was attacked by 10 villagers armed with Kalashnikov rifles. All were killed at the time or hunted down and murdered later. In their subsequent investigations, however, the mukhabarat—in this case operating under the ominous title of the “Regime Crimes Liaison office”—were able to use the system of tribe and sub-tribe in Dujail to tease out the names of everyone associated with the attackers.

The patriarchal lineage—wherein all males carry their father’s, grandfather’s, and great-grandfather’s names, sometimes back eight generations—enabled the secret police to trace the male line of entire families and thus to liquidate them all. Their womenfolk were tortured, many of them raped. The men were butchered. One grandfather lost all his sons and grandsons. His “treacherous” family line came to an end. The ruthlessness of Saddam’s “Crimes Liaison Office” comes across in their surviving reports.

We were assigned by the party to submit the names of the opposing and malignant members of the treacherous Al-Dawa Party ...

A comrade’s greeting. Dun Shakir to the Comrade Member of the State Command. Subject/Security report: Through the fact that the criminals from Al-Dawa Party have attacked our Great Commander the Secretariat of the State, the Striving Comrade Saddam Hussein, we raise the names of the hostile families that are against the party and revolution, knowing that we already raised several reports and surveys on these criminals whose names are below.”

And there follows a sheaf of files listing the accused families and their menfolk. Of the Al-Tayyar sub-tribe of the Abu Haideri tribe of Dujail, for example, there is a great grandfather called Abdullah with three children—Asad, Mohammed and Suheil—who themselves have nine children—Sabri, Ali, Nayif, Jasim, Hassan, Qadir, Kabsun, Yasin and Hani. Saddam’s secret police fell upon their sons: Ammar, Abdel Salam, Qasim, Sahib, Sa’ad, another Qasim (son of Qadir), Hashim, Ali, a second Ali (son of Yassin) and Thamir.

All of the latter were executed on Saddam’s orders. So was another of Jasim’s other sons—Nabil—and four more of Hassan’s sons—Hussein (who was indeed involved in the assassination attempt on Saddam) and Fatih and Salim and Mohammed and Mahmoud. Five more of their first cousins—Ahmed, Abdullah, Mohammed, Mahmoud and Abbas—were also done to death. Thus only one male issue of great-grandfather Abdullah’s entire family escaped Saddam’s execution squads. But these were just the male children of one family. Saddam’s murderers were after many more. The investigators at Saddam’s trial noticed one telling trait among his secret police officers. If they were reporting an execution, they would scribble their signature. If they were sending intelligence information, they would sign their names in full. After the fall of Saddam, of course, it was not difficult to match up the full names with the scribbled signatures.

But now I ask a question. When US troops massacre Iraqi civilians in Haditha because their buddy has been murdered, what is the difference between their revenge and that of Saddam? When a Taliban attack on Nato forces in Afghanistan provokes a US air strike on a village and leaves women and children torn to pieces in the ruins—this now seems the inevitable result—what is the difference between those innocent deaths and the destruction of the families of Abdullah’s grandchildren in Dujail?

Yes, I know that Saddam’s thugs selected the relatives of his enemies and we merely kill anyone in the area of our enemies. And yes, I grant you the outcome is not the same. The Iraqi dictator was hanged in Baghdad in 2006, cursed by his hooded Shia “Al-Dawa” executioners as he stood on the scaffold. For us, there will be no hangings.

[Sallahddin]

't Hele artikel posten maakt opinie vorming makkelijker:


‘Collateral Damage’ Not Much Different From Targeted Killing

Posted on Oct 11, 2008

All kinds of horrors flop on to my Beirut doormat. There’s The Independent’s mobile phone bill, a slew of blood-soaked local Lebanese newspapers—“Saleh Aridi’s blood consolidates [Druze] reconciliation”, was among the goriest of the past few days—and then there are files from the dark memory lane through which all Middle East history has to pass.

The repulsive Baath party archives of Saddam Hussein are the latest to find a place on my coffee table, all marked “Secret”, unpublished—though they formed the basis for the old man’s trial and for his depraved hanging by the Iraqi government more than two years ago. I reprint them now without excuse, for they have a bitter taste in the “new” Iraq and in the “new” Afghanistan about which we still fantasise as we send more Nato troops into Asia’s greatest military graveyard.

The documentary evidence of Saddam’s brutal inquiry into the killings at the Shia Muslim village of Dujail in 1982 provides frightening, fearful testament to the earnestness and cruelty of totalitarianism, the original files of Saddam’s mukhabarat security services in their hunt for the men who tried to assassinate the Iraqi dictator more than a quarter of a century ago. Saddam was then the all-powerful leader of a nation at war with Iran—an eight-year conflict that would cost the lives of more than a million Muslims on both sides—and whose most ruthless enemies were members of the Iranian-supported Al-Dawa Party (including a certain Nouri al-Maliki). Saddam’s closest allies at this time were the Gulf oil sheikhdoms—and the United States, which was sending military supplies, chemical precursors and satellite reconnaissance photographs to Baghdad to assist Saddam in his war against Iran, a nation he had invaded two years earlier.

On his passage through Dujail, Saddam’s heavily armed convoy was attacked by 10 villagers armed with Kalashnikov rifles. All were killed at the time or hunted down and murdered later. In their subsequent investigations, however, the mukhabarat—in this case operating under the ominous title of the “Regime Crimes Liaison office”—were able to use the system of tribe and sub-tribe in Dujail to tease out the names of everyone associated with the attackers.

The patriarchal lineage—wherein all males carry their father’s, grandfather’s, and great-grandfather’s names, sometimes back eight generations—enabled the secret police to trace the male line of entire families and thus to liquidate them all. Their womenfolk were tortured, many of them raped. The men were butchered. One grandfather lost all his sons and grandsons. His “treacherous” family line came to an end. The ruthlessness of Saddam’s “Crimes Liaison Office” comes across in their surviving reports.

We were assigned by the party to submit the names of the opposing and malignant members of the treacherous Al-Dawa Party ...

A comrade’s greeting. Dun Shakir to the Comrade Member of the State Command. Subject/Security report: Through the fact that the criminals from Al-Dawa Party have attacked our Great Commander the Secretariat of the State, the Striving Comrade Saddam Hussein, we raise the names of the hostile families that are against the party and revolution, knowing that we already raised several reports and surveys on these criminals whose names are below.”

And there follows a sheaf of files listing the accused families and their menfolk. Of the Al-Tayyar sub-tribe of the Abu Haideri tribe of Dujail, for example, there is a great grandfather called Abdullah with three children—Asad, Mohammed and Suheil—who themselves have nine children—Sabri, Ali, Nayif, Jasim, Hassan, Qadir, Kabsun, Yasin and Hani. Saddam’s secret police fell upon their sons: Ammar, Abdel Salam, Qasim, Sahib, Sa’ad, another Qasim (son of Qadir), Hashim, Ali, a second Ali (son of Yassin) and Thamir.

All of the latter were executed on Saddam’s orders. So was another of Jasim’s other sons—Nabil—and four more of Hassan’s sons—Hussein (who was indeed involved in the assassination attempt on Saddam) and Fatih and Salim and Mohammed and Mahmoud. Five more of their first cousins—Ahmed, Abdullah, Mohammed, Mahmoud and Abbas—were also done to death. Thus only one male issue of great-grandfather Abdullah’s entire family escaped Saddam’s execution squads. But these were just the male children of one family. Saddam’s murderers were after many more. The investigators at Saddam’s trial noticed one telling trait among his secret police officers. If they were reporting an execution, they would scribble their signature. If they were sending intelligence information, they would sign their names in full. After the fall of Saddam, of course, it was not difficult to match up the full names with the scribbled signatures.

But now I ask a question. When US troops massacre Iraqi civilians in Haditha because their buddy has been murdered, what is the difference between their revenge and that of Saddam? When a Taliban attack on Nato forces in Afghanistan provokes a US air strike on a village and leaves women and children torn to pieces in the ruins—this now seems the inevitable result—what is the difference between those innocent deaths and the destruction of the families of Abdullah’s grandchildren in Dujail?

Yes, I know that Saddam’s thugs selected the relatives of his enemies and we merely kill anyone in the area of our enemies. And yes, I grant you the outcome is not the same. The Iraqi dictator was hanged in Baghdad in 2006, cursed by his hooded Shia “Al-Dawa” executioners as he stood on the scaffold. For us, there will be no hangings.

Thanks , buddy : i do appreciate that :

i did not have enough time to put the whole article here !

U see ??? : deliberate targeting of civilians is a kindda psychological warfare & revenge to make the local peolple less eager to help or sympathise with the local resistance : that did the nazi's too ; the israeli's too (see for example the israeli war on lebanon in 2006 : the whole country was bombarded just in order to terrorise the local population & to make it stand against Hizbollah : it did absolutely not work : in the contrary : the Lebanese people stood behind Hizbollah en masse , no matter what !) :

the west is thus guilty of war crimes & crimes against humanity in Irak & Afghanistan at least !

Thanks again !

:zwai:

[Prince of light]

I should have chosen this titel for this topic :

who's gonna hang NATO for its war crimes in Afghanistan & Irak , its crimes against humanity , its violations of the Geneva convention ...???

Saddam was hung for less crimes ....

P.S.: u gotta have respect for the courage of Taliban for example :

Taliban fights against the military superior hi_tech NATO : a kindda David vs Goliath , this Nato do not even play fair , with its coward indiscriminate deliberate targeting of civilians ...: what a bloody shame indeed !!!!!!!!!! :

The west gotta dare no more to lecture others 'bout human rights ...

:zwaai:

[Soldim]

P.S.: u gotta have respect for the courage of Taliban


De door hun gebruikte taktieken wekken om eerlijk te zijn niet echt mijn respect op....



Taliban fights against the military superior hi_tech NATO : a kindda David vs Goliath , this Nato do not even play fair ,


Dat klinkt meer als een snikken kind "die anderen spelen niet eerlijk". Het lijkt me dat de Taliban donders goed weet/wist welke risico's ze liepen. Of het terecht is dat de NATO ingreep valt zeker te betwisten; dat de kans bestond dat de NATO of VS in zouden grijpen kon een ieder vermoeden.



with its coward indiscriminate deliberate targeting of civilians ...: what a bloody shame indeed !!!!!!!!!! :


Daar heb je gelijk in; maar ik vind het nu weer net zo laf en onfatsoenlijk wanneer strijders zich tussen diezelfde burger verschuilen.

[Damocles' sword]

De door hun gebruikte taktieken wekken om eerlijk te zijn niet echt mijn respect op....



Dat klinkt meer als een snikken kind "die anderen spelen niet eerlijk". Het lijkt me dat de Taliban donders goed weet/wist welke risico's ze liepen. Of het terecht is dat de NATO ingreep valt zeker te betwisten; dat de kans bestond dat de NATO of VS in zouden grijpen kon een ieder vermoeden.



Daar heb je gelijk in; maar ik vind het nu weer net zo laf en onfatsoenlijk wanneer strijders zich tussen diezelfde burger verschuilen.

Taliban tactieken wekken jouw respect niet op ??? :

wat dacht je dan ??? :

nogmaals het is een soort David vs Goliath :

de taliban moeten het maar doen met de primitieve middelen die die ter beschikking zouden hebben :

it takes courage to do that & not declare defeat :

dat deed de Vietcong ook tegen de VS :& terecht :

zelfverdediging is een internationaal erkend menselijk recht :

maar de NATO die met de mond vol tanden het over heeft over mensen rechten ...blablabla... is zeker geen enkel respect waard ,vooraal niet als die burgers met opzet bombardeert :

& dat doet die ook zonder enig twijfel :

da's een soort psychological dirty war fare to terrorise the local population & to make it less eager to sympathise or help the local resistance :

dat deden de nazi's ook , de israeli's ook : bijv. gedurend de israeli zomer oorlog op Lebanon : 2006 : waarin het heel land werd gebombardeerd, safe from the sky :lebanon of Hizbollah hadden juist geen gevechtsvliegtuigen, anti_vliegtuig_geschut... , alles werd plat gebombardeerd inclusief woongebieden, civiele infrastructuur , landschap, noem maar op ...onschuldige burgers, vrouwen & kinderen ...

om maar te zwijgen over die internationaal verboden massa_destructie wapens : clusterbommen : die achtergelaten_niet_ontploft clusterbommen die nog steeds lebanese onschuldige slachtoffers opeisen :

alleen al om hetzelfde psychologisch doel_effect te bereiken (want laf israel kon Hizbollah niet aan op de grond : & dat feit werd later bevestigd) , zoals boven werd geschetst ,tegen Hizbollah : tevergeefs : de lebanezen stonden juist massaal achter Hizbollah : sterker nog : deze Hizbollah had israel helemaal vernederd op de grond ... :

wie verdient dan respect : Hizbollah of israel , volgens je ???

de NATO kan wel anders gaan reageren in plaats van al die war crimes , crimes against humanity ... waarvoor die zeer schuldig is !

de NAVO & elk ander leger moeten de ethiek_moraal_speel regels van oorlogsvoering respecteren & fair ten oorlog gaan :

anders zijn die niet beter dan de nazi's, fascisten & andere oorlogscriminelen !

:zwaai:

[Sallahddin]

NATO deliberate nazi_like targeting of civilians & deliberate indiscriminate air strikes are not much different from ....so_called muslim terrorism! :cola:

:zwaai: