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knuppeltje
17-02-09, 12:53
Parijs. De Franse staat was medeveranrwoordelijk voor de deportatie van duizenden Joden tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog. Individuele schadeclaims kunnen echter niet meer worden toegewezen omdat al maatregelen tot schadevergoeding zijn genomen.
Dit heeft de Franse Raad van State maandag beslist. Het is voor het eerst dat de hoogst bestuursrechter zo duidelijk toegeeft dat de Franse staat medeschuldig was aan de Hollocaust, aldus Franse media.
het regime van maarschalk Pétain in Vichy (1940- 1944) collabopeerde met de Duitse bezetter. Het heeft volgens de uitspraak maandag zonder 'directe dwang van de bezetter' meegewerkt aan de deportatie van 67.000 Franse Joden, van wie er 2.566 overleefden. De zaak was aangespannen door een vrouw wier man naar Auschwitz is gedeporteerd. ANP.

Ben bang dat dat regime niet de enigste was die vrijwillig meewerkte.
Wie Geert Mak leest, moet daar toch wel zo zijn gedachte bij hebben denk.

Sallahddin
17-02-09, 14:45
Parijs. De Franse staat was medeveranrwoordelijk voor de deportatie van duizenden Joden tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog. Individuele schadeclaims kunnen echter niet meer worden toegewezen omdat al maatregelen tot schadevergoeding zijn genomen.
Dit heeft de Franse Raad van State maandag beslist. Het is voor het eerst dat de hoogst bestuursrechter zo duidelijk toegeeft dat de Franse staat medeschuldig was aan de Hollocaust, aldus Franse media.
het regime van maarschalk Pétain in Vichy (1940- 1944) collabopeerde met de Duitse bezetter. Het heeft volgens de uitspraak maandag zonder 'directe dwang van de bezetter' meegewerkt aan de deportatie van 67.000 Franse Joden, van wie er 2.566 overleefden. De zaak was aangespannen door een vrouw wier man naar Auschwitz is gedeporteerd. ANP.

Ben bang dat dat regime niet de enigste was die vrijwillig meewerkte.
Wie Geert Mak leest, moet daar toch wel zo zijn gedachte bij hebben denk.


ja , precies : algemeen bekend historisch feit net als :

al die al dan niet top christelijk geestelijken collaboraties met de nazis :

net als :

het heel westen is medeschuldig & medevraantwoordelijk voor het stichten, helpen van israel & van israeli war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocides.................. ! :gefeli:

furthermore , this hypocrit machiavellistic West dares to lecture us 'bout human rights_values ! :lol: :

zie Irak, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib ...................zie die misdadig westers onvoorwaardelijk steun aan israel in totaal minachting van internationaal recht, van mensen rechten, van de Geneva convention...

why should the Holocaust get all the attention while those same jews have been massacring our own peoples for more than 60 years ???

'cause the Holocaust was worse ???

what's the definition of ...worse ???

worse things had happened to other peoples throughout history !

do human pain & suffering need to exceed a certain level before getting acknowledged ???

elk menselijk leed is even erg !

do we need a palestinian Holocaust to stand up & speak up against those zionist barbaric beasts ???

Does special suffering give special rights or privileges ???

don't think so !

P.S.: why should we bear the burden or care 'bout the jewish suffering under the nazis ,even though we do strongly condemn it , while those same jews have ben massacring our own peoples for more than 60 years & while this hypocrit west is an active accomplice to those zionist crimes, war crimes, genocides ..........???

The Holocaust was an European problem : why should we bear that burden ???

why should palestinians or others pay the price for that ???

why did so_called "guilty" Europe not establish a jewish state on its own soil then ???

why did it have to export its "guilt "to others ???

Jews,zionists or israel are not above the law : they shouldn't have any privileges :they should be treated exactly as everybody else ...



ach ....what a hypocrit criminal world ! :gefeli: :kotsen2:

Talking 'bout human rights, international law, freedom, democracy ,equality, justice,truth, .....

who's gonna believe in this bullshit any more ??? !!! :kotsen2:

Julien
17-02-09, 15:09
Wat is hier schokkend aan? Iedereen weet toch al jaaaaaren dat Vichy collaboreerde met Nazi-Duitsland, en ook zowel actief als passief meedeed aan de jodenvervolging? Net als vrijwel alle andere continentale Europese landen. Vichy is overigens niet Frankrijk, maar alleen Zuid-Frankrijk.

Julien
17-02-09, 15:11
ja , precies : algemeen bekend historisch feit net als :

al die al dan niet top christelijk geestelijken collaboraties met de nazis :


dit klopt niet. het christendom, of de 'top' daarvan, heeft nooit gecollaboreerd met de nazi's.

Bofko
17-02-09, 15:14
Wat is hier schokkend aan? Iedereen weet toch al jaaaaaren dat Vichy collaboreerde met Nazi-Duitsland, en ook zowel actief als passief meedeed aan de jodenvervolging? Net als vrijwel alle andere continentale Europese landen. Vichy is overigens niet Frankrijk, maar alleen Zuid-Frankrijk.
Klopt. Maar de clou van dit bericht is de erkenning van dit feit door de hoogste bestuursrechter. Da's toch hele stap voor chauvinistische Fransen.

Julien
17-02-09, 15:17
Klopt. Maar de clou van dit bericht is de erkenning van dit feit door de hoogste bestuursrechter. Da's toch hele stap voor chauvinistische Fransen.

Wat wil die jood hier, 70 jaar na dato, overigens mee bereiken? Alsof Frankrijk nooit het foute verleden van Vichy erkend heeft??
Of ruikt deze persoon geld?

Bofko
17-02-09, 15:27
Wat wil die jood hier, 70 jaar na dato, overigens mee bereiken? Alsof Frankrijk nooit het foute verleden van Vichy erkend heeft??
Of ruikt deze persoon geld?

Humaniteit.Erkenning van een misdaad is heel belangrijk voor slachtoffers (beter in dit geval : nabestaanden van slachtoffers).

fisherman1969
17-02-09, 15:51
ja , precies : algemeen bekend historisch feit net als :

al die al dan niet top christelijk geestelijken collaboraties met de nazis :

net als :

het heel westen is medeschuldig & medevraantwoordelijk voor het stichten, helpen van israel & van israeli war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocides.................. ! :gefeli:

furthermore , this hypocrit machiavellistic West dares to lecture us 'bout human rights_values ! :lol: :

zie Irak, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib ...................zie die misdadig westers onvoorwaardelijk steun aan israel in totaal minachting van internationaal recht, van mensen rechten, van de Geneva convention...

why should the Holocaust get all the attention while those same jews have been massacring our own peoples for more than 60 years ???

'cause the Holocaust was worse ???

what's the definition of ...worse ???

worse things had happened to other peoples throughout history !

do human pain & suffering need to exceed a certain level before getting acknowledged ???

elk menselijk leed is even erg !

do we need a palestinian Holocaust to stand up & speak up against those zionist barbaric beasts ???

Does special suffering give special rights or privileges ???

don't think so !

P.S.: why should we bear the burden or care 'bout the jewish suffering under the nazis ,even though we do strongly condemn it , while those same jews have ben massacring our own peoples for more than 60 years & while this hypocrit west is an active accomplice to those zionist crimes, war crimes, genocides ..........???

The Holocaust was an European problem : why should we bear that burden ???

why should palestinians or others pay the price for that ???

why did so_called "guilty" Europe not establish a jewish state on its own soil then ???

why did it have to export its "guilt "to others ???

Jews,zionists or israel are not above the law : they shouldn't have any privileges :they should be treated exactly as everybody else ...



ach ....what a hypocrit criminal world ! :gefeli: :kotsen2:

Talking 'bout human rights, international law, freedom, democracy ,equality, justice,truth, .....

who's gonna believe in this bullshit any more ??? !!! :kotsen2:

zonder commentaar gek!!
DE PRIESTERS VAN DACHAU

Lieber Jesu mach mich fromm
Dass ich nicht nach Dachau komm.

(Duits kindergebedje)


ALGEMEEN
Algemeen | Titus Brandsma

Vijf jaar lang bevond zich in Dachau de grootste religieuze gemeenschap ter wereld. 2771 geestelijken waren opgesloten binnen de omheining van dit grote concentratiekamp. 1034 van hen vonden er de dood.
2579 Rooms Katholieke priesters en seminaristen uit 38 landen waren er. Verder 109 protestantse predikanten, 30 orthodoxe geestelijken en twee Islamitische imams.
Deze getallen betreffen alleen Dachau; buiten beschouwing gelaten zijn hier de geestelijken en religieuzen die zijn doodgemarteld of onthoofd in gevangenissen of gewoon op straat. Alleen in Polen werden 700 priesters door de nazi's vermoord; in Dachau waren het ook de Polen die het in het bijzonder moesten ontgelden. Zij kwamen in strafcommando's of werden blootgesteld aan medische experimenten.
In februari 1944 arresteerde de Gestapo 162 priesters en transporteerde hen naar Dachau. Slechts 41 van hen bereikten hun bestemming, de anderen zijn onderweg vermoord.
Onder de in Dachau verblijvende geestelijken bevonden zich ook enkele honderden Nederlanders, zowel predikanten als roomkatholieke priesters.

Soldim
17-02-09, 16:41
why should we bear the burden or care 'bout the jewish suffering under the nazis

Jij draagt helemaal geen last als gevolg van de holocaust.

knuppeltje
17-02-09, 17:26
Wat wil die jood hier, 70 jaar na dato, overigens mee bereiken? Alsof Frankrijk nooit het foute verleden van Vichy erkend heeft??
Of ruikt deze persoon geld?

Misschien, maar dan toch wel praktisch alleen binnenskamers.

Bang dat het je geld gaat kosten antisemietje?

Julien
17-02-09, 19:25
Bang dat het je geld gaat kosten antisemietje?


Hoezo zou het mij geld kosten? Zelfs mijn ouders hebben die tijd niet eens meegemaakt. Maak jij je maar druk over je ouders die aan de lopende band joden gingen verklikken, vaag geval dat je bent

Olive Yao
18-02-09, 00:29
Wat wil die jood hier, 70 jaar na dato, overigens mee bereiken? Alsof Frankrijk nooit het foute verleden van Vichy erkend heeft??
Of ruikt deze persoon geld?




Humaniteit. Erkenning van een misdaad is heel belangrijk voor slachtoffers (beter in dit geval : nabestaanden van slachtoffers).

Ja, en voor andere mensen, om te beseffen dat "wij" geen haar beter zijn dan "zij".

Ter vergelijking, België heeft in Kongo een van de grootste democides ooit op zn geweten. Ooit publiekelijk afstand van genomen? Er staan standbeelden van Leopold II in België, onder wiens verantwoordelijkheid de democide plaatsvond - Kongo was aanvankelijk zijn persoonlijke kolonie.

knuppeltje
18-02-09, 09:57
Maak jij je maar druk over je ouders die aan de lopende band joden gingen verklikken, vaag geval dat je bent

Blijkbaar begreep je het weer niet, dat geld kosten sloeg op dat het Frankrijk mogelijk geld zou kunnen gaan kosten, belastinggeld, dus van elke Fransman wat.
Dat je kwaad bent wil nog niet zeggen dat je zomaar andermans ouders vals moet beschuldigen. Dus daar laat je weer eens zien hoe fijn je bent Fransoosje.

Sallahddin
18-02-09, 12:49
Jij draagt helemaal geen last als gevolg van de holocaust.


when i say "we" , i mean : Palestinians, muslims , christians in the region :

israel werd gesticht ten koste van Palestijnse mensen ... als gevol van de holocaust : als je dat geen last zou willen noemen, dan wat wel????

fisherman1969
18-02-09, 13:55
when i say "we" , i mean : Palestinians, muslims , christians in the region :

israel werd gesticht ten koste van Palestijnse mensen ... als gevol van de holocaust : als je dat geen last zou willen noemen, dan wat wel????

DE ene gore leugen na de andre verdraai je hier ten gunste van jou idioterie erzaten zelf IMAMS bij de opgepakte geestelijken die het ookmaar waagden een woord te zeggen wat de Nazie,s niet beviel.
HIER NOG FF EEN STUKJE OM JE GEHEUGEN OPTE FRISSEN :
Vijf jaar lang bevond zich in Dachau de grootste religieuze gemeenschap ter wereld. 2771 geestelijken waren opgesloten binnen de omheining van dit grote concentratiekamp. 1034 van hen vonden er de dood.
2579 Rooms Katholieke priesters en seminaristen uit 38 landen waren er. Verder 109 protestantse predikanten, 30 orthodoxe geestelijken en twee Islamitische imams.

Sallahddin
18-02-09, 19:16
dit klopt niet. het christendom, of de 'top' daarvan, heeft nooit gecollaboreerd met de nazi's.

klopt 200 % : je zag toch die foto's op die ander topic ?

zie ook die algemeen bekend historisch ideologisch _religieus antisemistisch misdadig fundamenteel karakter van de kerk ...

Sallahddin
18-02-09, 19:18
DE ene gore leugen na de andre verdraai je hier ten gunste van jou idioterie erzaten zelf IMAMS bij de opgepakte geestelijken die het ookmaar waagden een woord te zeggen wat de Nazie,s niet beviel.
HIER NOG FF EEN STUKJE OM JE GEHEUGEN OPTE FRISSEN :
Vijf jaar lang bevond zich in Dachau de grootste religieuze gemeenschap ter wereld. 2771 geestelijken waren opgesloten binnen de omheining van dit grote concentratiekamp. 1034 van hen vonden er de dood.
2579 Rooms Katholieke priesters en seminaristen uit 38 landen waren er. Verder 109 protestantse predikanten, 30 orthodoxe geestelijken en twee Islamitische imams.

:lol:

Laat je na kijken :

ik heb het over een klein leger al dan niet top christelijke geestelijken & veel anderen die hadden gecollaboreerd met de nazis & je zegt : 2 imams : er was er ook 1 Palestijns Moefti , so : do ur math ! :

do some comparison work !

welke imams waren dat dan ??? : welke bronen ???

P.S.: u just wanna disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing , 'cause i was not nice to u :lol: , so what :lol: :

Go ahead , be my guest, knock urself out !

:zwaai:

naam
19-02-09, 09:18
:lol:

Laat je na kijken :

ik heb het over een klein leger al dan niet top christelijke geestelijken & veel anderen die hadden gecollaboreerd met de nazis & je zegt : 2 imams : er was er ook 1 Palestijns Moefti , so : do ur math ! :

do some comparison work !

welke imams waren dat dan ??? : welke bronen ???

P.S.: u just wanna disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing , 'cause i was not nice to u :lol: , so what :lol: :

Go ahead , be my guest, knock urself out !

:zwaai:

Kun je wel lezen? In het stuk wordt verteld dat er dus veel meer katholieken en christenen etc opgesloten waren in Dachau en dat er maar 2 imams zaten. Dat wil dus zeggen dat de nazi's meer tegen de christenen en katholieken actie ondernamen dan tegen imams. Of omgekeerd natuurlijk.

ronald
19-02-09, 19:21
Kun je wel lezen? In het stuk wordt verteld dat er dus veel meer katholieken en christenen etc opgesloten waren in Dachau en dat er maar 2 imams zaten. Dat wil dus zeggen dat de nazi's meer tegen de christenen en katholieken actie ondernamen dan tegen imams. Of omgekeerd natuurlijk.

Sally heeft het een en ander natuurlijk weer niet op een rijtje. Je zou nog eniogszins kunnen afvragen Hoe was de verhouding Christelijke geestelijken en Islamitische geestelijken. Maar goed, Sally is in de war met een hele andere groep geestelijken:


Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - (also Hussayni or Hajj Amin el Husseini) - (1895-1974) -- A radical pro-Nazi Palestinian and Muslim leader, scion of the influential Husseini family of Jerusalem. In WW I, he fought for the Ottoman Turks as did many Jewish and Arab Palestinians but eventually changed sides.

With Aref el-Aref, Husseini was largely responsible for riots started in 1920 ("Nebi musa") . Husseini was jailed, but subsequently released and elected Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in an election rigged by Sir Herbert Samuel, the British High Commissioner, who thought to co-opt his radicalism. Because of his position and family connections, the Mufti had access to about 200,000 pounds annually, much of which was used to finance terror campaigns as well as to advance his own position.
Haj Amin El Husseini - Palestinian leader and former Grand Mufti, reviewing Nazi Troops.
Palestinian leader, Former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin Al Husseini, shown reviewing Nazi troops on the cover of the Vienna Illustrated (Wiener Illustrierte) magazine.

The "Grand Mufti" title was invented by the British. The Mufti used that title and several others, such as "eminence." The sheikh-and president of his former university, Al-Azbar in Cairo, noted:

In Islam, there are no "eminencies" and no "grand" muftis. Before Allah all men are equal, and it ill behooves a religious teacher to assume such redundant titles... A mufti is a teacher in Islam. And even to that title Hajj Amin should have no claim, for he has not finished a single course of studies here at the University. He owes his appointment to political influence and family connections. He is a politician.

Husseini's early attitude regarding Zionism was expressed as follows to a Jew named Abbady, a native of Palestine, who worked with him at one time:

Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.

He told an interviewer, Ladislas Farago:

The Jews have changed the life of Palestine in such a way that it must inevitably lead to the destruction of our race. We are not accustomed to this haste and speed, and therefore we are continually being driven into the background.

(Both quotes from http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti1.htm )

The British made Husseini head of the Supreme Muslim Council and gave him considerable resources. The head of the council was supposed to be elected every 5 years, but Husseini seized control and terrified others. He controlled the allowance of the council from the mandatory government, Muslim charity money and donations from abroad. He used these resources to buy patronage influence. As Mufti, Husseini initiated renovations of the Al-Aqsa and Omar mosques on the temple mount (Haram as Sharif) in order to build up the importance of Jerusalem as a Muslim holy place and Palestinian national symbol. These projects increased his prestige immensely in the Arab world and were a good way to raise funds from abroad and provide work, thus providing him with an additional source for giving out patronage. He apparently instigated the riots of 1929. He took over leadership of the Arab Revolt (Great Uprising) of 1936-1939, apparently funded by the Italian Fascist government or the Nazis. Count Ciano, the Italian Foreign Minister, stated in 1940 that the Italians had funded the Mufti for many years, and likewise the German Siecherheitsdienst (Secret Service) claimed that without their support, the Arabs could not have continued their resistance to the British in Palestine.

The Mufti formed the Higher Arab Committee and used the revolt to settle scores with rival Palestinian clans, murdering hundreds of leaders in 11 different clans. It is reported that he met with Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in September or October of 1937, when Eichmann visited Palestine for a day. Eichmann was investigating the possibility of deporting Jews to Palestine. Reportedly, the Mufti persuaded him against this scheme. However, it is not at all clear that the Mufti was still in Palestine when Eichmann visited. In September or October of 1937, following the murder of the British commissioner for the Galilee, Husseini and the entire "Higher Arab Committee" fled first to Lebanon and then to Iraq, where he engineered a pro-Axis coup. On May 10, 1941 the Mufti broadcast a Fatwa (religious ruling) calling for a holy war against the British. This speech was carried by Iraq and Axis radio stations. Typically, a major complaint in this Fatwa was that the British profaned the Al-Aqsa mosque and were out to destroy Islam:

In Palestine the English have committed unheard of barbarisms; among others, they have profaned the el-Aqsa Mosque and have declared the most unyielding war against Islam, both in deed and in word. The Prime Minister at that time told Parliament that the world would never see peace as long as the Koran existed. What hatred against Islam is stronger than that which publicly declares the Sacred Koran an enemy of human kind? Should such sacrilege go unpunished?

When the Iraqi coup failed, Hajj Amin Al-Husseini fled to Nazi Germany, along with Fawzi El Kaukji. In Germany, he broadcast for the Nazis. He lobbied extensively to prevent Jews from escaping Germany. In 1943, he was sent to Yugoslavia, where he organized the 13th Waffen SS division, known as the Hanjar (Hansar, Handjar, or Handzar, meaning "saber") division. These Muslims were trained in Germany and officered by Germans. The incorporation of Muslims into the SS required changes in racist ideological propaganda, and also required that they be given special privileges, and not required to eat rations of pork or alcoholic beverages.

Heinrich Himmler wrote to their officers on August 6, 1943:

"...I hold all commanders and other SS officers, responsible for the most scrupulous and loyal respect for this privilege especially granted to the Moslems. They have answered the call of the Moslem chiefs and have come to us out of hatred for the common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemy and through respect and fidelity for he who they respect above all, the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There will no longer be the least discussion about the special rights afforded to the Moslems in these circles....

Heil Hitler!

(signed)

H. Himmler".
Mufti - Nazism: Haj Amin el Husseini reviewing soldiers of his Hansar SS Division

Hajj Amin a Husseini reviewing a unit of Waffen-
SS Handsar Division that he recruited.

The division organized by Husseini was responsible for the murder of about 90% of Bosnia's Jews and destroyed numerous Serbian churches and villages. These recruits were favorites of SS chief Heinrich Himmler, who established a special Mullah Military school in Dresden.

The enthusiasm for Nazism, though widespread in Arab lands, was not general. About 6,000 Palestinian Arabs served with the British along with some 26,000 Jewish volunteers, and Muslims and Arabs from other countries served in the Allied forces as well. The Mufti tried to organize a Muslim Nazi army from Muslim prisoners of war, but was notably unsuccessful. Even among his own SS division there was apparently unrest. The SS had killed about 40 Muslims fighting with the Yugoslav partisans, including some who were relatives of those serving in the SS. This caused unrest and a small mutiny, as some Muslim SS troops were uninterested in killing Jews and others in Yugoslavia and wanted to fight in Palestine.

According to testimony by Nazi war criminals, the Mufti's influence was critical to the German decision to annihilate the Jews of Europe. At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Dieter Wisliceny testified:

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

Wisliceny also testified that after the Mufti's arrival in Germany he had paid a visit to Himmler and shortly afterwards (late in 1941 or early in 1942) had visited Eichmann in his Berlin office at Kürfurstrasse, 116. According to Wisliceny, Eichmann told him that he had brought the Mufti to a special room where he showed him maps illustrating the distribution of the Jewish population in various European countries and delivered a detailed report on the solution of the Jewish problem in Europe. Some of Wisliceny's testimony regarding Eichmann may have been self-serving as is claimed, but the evidence that the Mufti was an avid Nazi and was personally responsible for the mass murder of many Jews is not lacking, even without Wisliceny's testimony.

When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt death camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled.

The Mufti's role in war crimes was well documented, but he escaped detention in France, where he was awaiting trial, evidently because the French sought to derail British plans for Palestine. He then orchestrated the Palestinian civil war against the Jews, in opposition to the UN partition plan. He organized Arab League support for the Palestinian cause, and explained to the British that the solution he would adopt for the Jewish problem in Palestine was the same one as that adopted in Europe - extermination. His Nazi associations did not prevent the Mufti from remaining a revered Palestinian leader.

The significance of the Mufti and his party in Palestinian society and in the history of Zionism and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was critical and must not be ignored. The Husseini family massacred the moderate leadership of the Arab Palestinian community, leaving them largely without effective leadership, creating an ominous tradition of clan warfare, and firmly establishing the most radical sort of Jew-hatred as a major political element among the Arab Palestinians. Beginning in 1920, Husseini entrenched a tradition of Arab Palestinian pogroms against Jewish civilians, including non-Zionists, featuring the worst sort of atrocities against women, children and old men. This sort of violence also bred an unhealthy taste for revenge, as well as fear. For the Zionists, the Mufti represented the threat of imminent genocide, and his leadership and statements gave the Zionists to understand that the war with the Palestinians was a take-no-prisoners us-or-them life or death struggle.

On the other hand, the Mufti's influence waned after the Israel War of Independence. For western consumption at least, Palestinians tend to ignore his Nazi affiliations rather than revel in it. Feisal Husseini, his relative who held the portfolio for Jerusalem in the Palestinian National Authority, was a relative moderate, and other members of the Husseini clan are not necessarily allied with the ideology of Hajj Amin al Husseini.

Ami Isseroff

Sallahddin
20-02-09, 20:46
Kun je wel lezen? In het stuk wordt verteld dat er dus veel meer katholieken en christenen etc opgesloten waren in Dachau en dat er maar 2 imams zaten. Dat wil dus zeggen dat de nazi's meer tegen de christenen en katholieken actie ondernamen dan tegen imams. Of omgekeerd natuurlijk.


tja, waren er juist bijna geen moslims in Europa toen, dummy ! :

moslim immigratie naar Europa is relatief recent...........

& wat is dit voor logica die je hier hanteert dan : geloof aanhangers ,....die de meest gevangenen hadden onder de nazis zijn dus ...........

ach............het is algemeen bekend hoe die klein leger van al dan niet top christelijk geestelijken hadden gecollaboreerd met de nazis & die zijn ver in de meerderheid ,neemt niet weg het feit dat veel christelijk geestelijken & andere christenen zelfs hun eigen levens hadden geriskeerd om joden te kunnen redden..........


sterker nog : om maar te zwijgen over die algemeen bekend historisch ideologisch_religieus fundamenteel antisemistisch inquisitie-achtig misdadg karakter van de kerk ...........

sommigen durven wel te beweren dat nazisme is helemaal verder dan Nietzsche terug te voeren naar ...die fundamenteel antisemistisch ideologisch-religieus karakter van de kerk !

Sallahddin
20-02-09, 20:47
Sally heeft het een en ander natuurlijk weer niet op een rijtje. Je zou nog eniogszins kunnen afvragen Hoe was de verhouding Christelijke geestelijken en Islamitische geestelijken. Maar goed, Sally is in de war met een hele andere groep geestelijken:


Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - (also Hussayni or Hajj Amin el Husseini) - (1895-1974) -- A radical pro-Nazi Palestinian and Muslim leader, scion of the influential Husseini family of Jerusalem. In WW I, he fought for the Ottoman Turks as did many Jewish and Arab Palestinians but eventually changed sides.

With Aref el-Aref, Husseini was largely responsible for riots started in 1920 ("Nebi musa") . Husseini was jailed, but subsequently released and elected Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in an election rigged by Sir Herbert Samuel, the British High Commissioner, who thought to co-opt his radicalism. Because of his position and family connections, the Mufti had access to about 200,000 pounds annually, much of which was used to finance terror campaigns as well as to advance his own position.
Haj Amin El Husseini - Palestinian leader and former Grand Mufti, reviewing Nazi Troops.
Palestinian leader, Former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin Al Husseini, shown reviewing Nazi troops on the cover of the Vienna Illustrated (Wiener Illustrierte) magazine.

The "Grand Mufti" title was invented by the British. The Mufti used that title and several others, such as "eminence." The sheikh-and president of his former university, Al-Azbar in Cairo, noted:

In Islam, there are no "eminencies" and no "grand" muftis. Before Allah all men are equal, and it ill behooves a religious teacher to assume such redundant titles... A mufti is a teacher in Islam. And even to that title Hajj Amin should have no claim, for he has not finished a single course of studies here at the University. He owes his appointment to political influence and family connections. He is a politician.

Husseini's early attitude regarding Zionism was expressed as follows to a Jew named Abbady, a native of Palestine, who worked with him at one time:

Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.

He told an interviewer, Ladislas Farago:

The Jews have changed the life of Palestine in such a way that it must inevitably lead to the destruction of our race. We are not accustomed to this haste and speed, and therefore we are continually being driven into the background.

(Both quotes from http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti1.htm )

The British made Husseini head of the Supreme Muslim Council and gave him considerable resources. The head of the council was supposed to be elected every 5 years, but Husseini seized control and terrified others. He controlled the allowance of the council from the mandatory government, Muslim charity money and donations from abroad. He used these resources to buy patronage influence. As Mufti, Husseini initiated renovations of the Al-Aqsa and Omar mosques on the temple mount (Haram as Sharif) in order to build up the importance of Jerusalem as a Muslim holy place and Palestinian national symbol. These projects increased his prestige immensely in the Arab world and were a good way to raise funds from abroad and provide work, thus providing him with an additional source for giving out patronage. He apparently instigated the riots of 1929. He took over leadership of the Arab Revolt (Great Uprising) of 1936-1939, apparently funded by the Italian Fascist government or the Nazis. Count Ciano, the Italian Foreign Minister, stated in 1940 that the Italians had funded the Mufti for many years, and likewise the German Siecherheitsdienst (Secret Service) claimed that without their support, the Arabs could not have continued their resistance to the British in Palestine.

The Mufti formed the Higher Arab Committee and used the revolt to settle scores with rival Palestinian clans, murdering hundreds of leaders in 11 different clans. It is reported that he met with Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in September or October of 1937, when Eichmann visited Palestine for a day. Eichmann was investigating the possibility of deporting Jews to Palestine. Reportedly, the Mufti persuaded him against this scheme. However, it is not at all clear that the Mufti was still in Palestine when Eichmann visited. In September or October of 1937, following the murder of the British commissioner for the Galilee, Husseini and the entire "Higher Arab Committee" fled first to Lebanon and then to Iraq, where he engineered a pro-Axis coup. On May 10, 1941 the Mufti broadcast a Fatwa (religious ruling) calling for a holy war against the British. This speech was carried by Iraq and Axis radio stations. Typically, a major complaint in this Fatwa was that the British profaned the Al-Aqsa mosque and were out to destroy Islam:

In Palestine the English have committed unheard of barbarisms; among others, they have profaned the el-Aqsa Mosque and have declared the most unyielding war against Islam, both in deed and in word. The Prime Minister at that time told Parliament that the world would never see peace as long as the Koran existed. What hatred against Islam is stronger than that which publicly declares the Sacred Koran an enemy of human kind? Should such sacrilege go unpunished?

When the Iraqi coup failed, Hajj Amin Al-Husseini fled to Nazi Germany, along with Fawzi El Kaukji. In Germany, he broadcast for the Nazis. He lobbied extensively to prevent Jews from escaping Germany. In 1943, he was sent to Yugoslavia, where he organized the 13th Waffen SS division, known as the Hanjar (Hansar, Handjar, or Handzar, meaning "saber") division. These Muslims were trained in Germany and officered by Germans. The incorporation of Muslims into the SS required changes in racist ideological propaganda, and also required that they be given special privileges, and not required to eat rations of pork or alcoholic beverages.

Heinrich Himmler wrote to their officers on August 6, 1943:

"...I hold all commanders and other SS officers, responsible for the most scrupulous and loyal respect for this privilege especially granted to the Moslems. They have answered the call of the Moslem chiefs and have come to us out of hatred for the common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemy and through respect and fidelity for he who they respect above all, the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There will no longer be the least discussion about the special rights afforded to the Moslems in these circles....

Heil Hitler!

(signed)

H. Himmler".
Mufti - Nazism: Haj Amin el Husseini reviewing soldiers of his Hansar SS Division

Hajj Amin a Husseini reviewing a unit of Waffen-
SS Handsar Division that he recruited.

The division organized by Husseini was responsible for the murder of about 90% of Bosnia's Jews and destroyed numerous Serbian churches and villages. These recruits were favorites of SS chief Heinrich Himmler, who established a special Mullah Military school in Dresden.

The enthusiasm for Nazism, though widespread in Arab lands, was not general. About 6,000 Palestinian Arabs served with the British along with some 26,000 Jewish volunteers, and Muslims and Arabs from other countries served in the Allied forces as well. The Mufti tried to organize a Muslim Nazi army from Muslim prisoners of war, but was notably unsuccessful. Even among his own SS division there was apparently unrest. The SS had killed about 40 Muslims fighting with the Yugoslav partisans, including some who were relatives of those serving in the SS. This caused unrest and a small mutiny, as some Muslim SS troops were uninterested in killing Jews and others in Yugoslavia and wanted to fight in Palestine.

According to testimony by Nazi war criminals, the Mufti's influence was critical to the German decision to annihilate the Jews of Europe. At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Dieter Wisliceny testified:

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

Wisliceny also testified that after the Mufti's arrival in Germany he had paid a visit to Himmler and shortly afterwards (late in 1941 or early in 1942) had visited Eichmann in his Berlin office at Kürfurstrasse, 116. According to Wisliceny, Eichmann told him that he had brought the Mufti to a special room where he showed him maps illustrating the distribution of the Jewish population in various European countries and delivered a detailed report on the solution of the Jewish problem in Europe. Some of Wisliceny's testimony regarding Eichmann may have been self-serving as is claimed, but the evidence that the Mufti was an avid Nazi and was personally responsible for the mass murder of many Jews is not lacking, even without Wisliceny's testimony.

When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt death camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled.

The Mufti's role in war crimes was well documented, but he escaped detention in France, where he was awaiting trial, evidently because the French sought to derail British plans for Palestine. He then orchestrated the Palestinian civil war against the Jews, in opposition to the UN partition plan. He organized Arab League support for the Palestinian cause, and explained to the British that the solution he would adopt for the Jewish problem in Palestine was the same one as that adopted in Europe - extermination. His Nazi associations did not prevent the Mufti from remaining a revered Palestinian leader.

The significance of the Mufti and his party in Palestinian society and in the history of Zionism and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was critical and must not be ignored. The Husseini family massacred the moderate leadership of the Arab Palestinian community, leaving them largely without effective leadership, creating an ominous tradition of clan warfare, and firmly establishing the most radical sort of Jew-hatred as a major political element among the Arab Palestinians. Beginning in 1920, Husseini entrenched a tradition of Arab Palestinian pogroms against Jewish civilians, including non-Zionists, featuring the worst sort of atrocities against women, children and old men. This sort of violence also bred an unhealthy taste for revenge, as well as fear. For the Zionists, the Mufti represented the threat of imminent genocide, and his leadership and statements gave the Zionists to understand that the war with the Palestinians was a take-no-prisoners us-or-them life or death struggle.

On the other hand, the Mufti's influence waned after the Israel War of Independence. For western consumption at least, Palestinians tend to ignore his Nazi affiliations rather than revel in it. Feisal Husseini, his relative who held the portfolio for Jerusalem in the Palestinian National Authority, was a relative moderate, and other members of the Husseini clan are not necessarily allied with the ideology of Hajj Amin al Husseini.

Ami Isseroff

Kortom: om een lang verhaal kort te maken :

waar wil je precies heen ???