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torc
27-03-04, 15:10
Times.March 26, 2004

Carey defends 'anti-Islam' speech
BY PA NEWS AND JENNY BOOTH
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The former Archbishop of Canterbury has defended a controversial speech in which he criticised Islam as a faith "associated with violence throughout the world".

Lord Carey of Clifton cited suicide bombers and the rise of extremism as evidence of a violent battle for the soul of Islam which was spilling out and having a heavy impact the wider world.

In a lecture last night at the Gregorian University in Rome he said that Islam was resistant to modernity and Islamic societies had contributed little to world culture for hundreds of years.

Many Muslim countries were led by authoritarian regimes which had risen to power "at the point of a gun", he said.

And he accused Islamic spiritual leaders of not doing enough to condemn suicide bombers who claimed to be religious martyrs.

Lord Carey's remarks were delivered hours before his successor as Archbishop, Rowan Williams, is due to depart for a three-day seminar between Christian and Muslim scholars in America on the subject of "building bridges".

Muslim leaders in the UK accused him of "recycling" old religious prejudices. But Lord Carey defended his speech on BBC Radio 4's The World At One programme.

"It is meant to provoke a reaction. In the same way I look at the West and Christianity and am equally critical," he said.

"I'm looking at the way we build stereotypes of each other and the way we must transcend this, and I think that a person looking objectively at the entire speech - five and a half thousand words - will see there's a balance there ...

"So to twist it as an attack on the Islamic world would be far too simplistic and sadly it does suggest how polarised the world is at the present moment."

An official statement released by the Muslim Council said that Lord Carey should mind his own business.


"In his myopic vision of the Middle East, Lord Carey seems also to show little understanding of the role played by Western powers in propping up many of the regimes all over the world.

"We would suggest that rather than hectoring Muslims, Lord Carey’s skills would be more usefully employed in halting the drift away from Christianity in Europe. The decline of the values and teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him, also concern us as Muslims."


In a wide-ranging speech, Lord Carey conceded that most Muslims were peaceful, but he said not enough moderates denounced the "radical activists" who carry out attacks in the name of Allah.

He said: "We look to them to condemn suicide bombers and terrorists who use Islam as a weapon to destabilise and destroy innocent lives.

"Sadly, apart from a very few courageous examples, very few Muslim leaders condemn clearly and unconditionally the evil of suicide bombers who kill innocent people.

"We need to hear outright condemnation of theologies that state that suicide bombers are martyrs and enter a martyr's reward."

This remark was greeted angrily by Manzoor Moghal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester, home to 40,000 Muslims.

He said: "That is nonsense - we condemn suicide bombers, we go on radio, on television, we have made statements. What more can we do?

"We cannot be responsible for the criminal actions of others - they are not under our control. The archbishop has got it wrong.

"This is a disastrous statement from the former archbishop. He has fallen prey to the campaign tactics of racists in this country."

Mr Moghal also rejected Lord Carey's comments that Islamic culture had become sterile and its faith too inflexible.

Lord Carey said: "Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the West many of the treasures of Greek thought, the beginnings of calculus, Aristotelian thought during the period known as the Dark Ages, it is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries.".

And in comments that provoked particular controversy, he added: "In the case of Islam, Mohammed, acknowledged by all in spite of his religious greatness to be an illiterate man, is said to have received God's word direct, word by word from angels, and scribes recorded them later.

"Thus believers are told, because they have come direct from Allah, they are not to be questioned or revised.

"In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."

Mr Moghal said: "I think he will cause a lot of offence to the Muslim community - not only in Britain but throughout the world.

"His understanding is very poor and people are going to see the whole thing in a light which will portray him as a person who is ignorant in the true faith of Islam."

Ahmed Versi, editor of Muslim News, said: "We hope that the current Archbishop Rowan Williams - who is very different - will condemn these views."

A spokesman for Lambeth House said however that Dr Williams was "relaxed" about Lord Carey's remarks, and did not intend to comment on them.

Lord Carey admitted that he was not an expert on Islam, but defended his right to comment with the claim that while he was Archbishop he had spent much time with some of the most important names in the Muslim faith, trying to "build bridges of understanding between two great faiths".

"In retirement I continue to engage in dialogue through the Alexander Declaration Process which attempts to bring Muslim, Jewish and Christian leaders together in Israel and Palestine," he said.

"I think I can say with some confidence that I have a reasonable idea of the challenges that Islam presents to Christianity and the West and the challenges that Islam faces today."

 http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=uk&newsclusterurl=http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/9905049%3Fsource%3DEvening%2520Standard&q=&scoring=d

torc
27-03-04, 15:15
http://news.google.com/news?num=30&hl=en&edition=uk&q=cluster:www%2ethisislondon%2eco%2euk%2fnews%2far ticles%2f9905049%3fsource%3dEvening%2520Standard

torc
27-03-04, 15:20
Independent.co,uk

By Caroline Gammell

27 March 2004

The former Archbishop of Canterbury defended a controversial speech yesterday after criticism from Muslims.

Lord Carey cited suicide bombers, Islam's "resistance" to modernity and the authoritarian regimes of some of its societies in a lecture he gave in Rome. He said Islamic societies had contributed little to world culture for hundreds of years.

The former Church of England leader said Islamic countries were often led by people who rose to power "at the point of a gun" and he accused its leaders of not doing enough to condemn suicide bombers.

After the lecture, on the eve of a Christian-Muslim seminar, he was accused of "recycling" old religious prejudices by Muslim leaders in the UK, but Lord Carey defended his speech on BBC Radio 4's The World at One programme. "It is meant to provoke a reaction. I look at the West and Christianity and am equally critical," he said.

"I think that a person looking objectively at the entire speech will see there's a balance there. To twist it as an attack on the Islamic world would be far too simplistic and it does suggest how polarised the world is at present. The positive is that I believe we can do more together: two great faiths, Christianity and Islam, working together against extremists."

Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, was swift to dismiss the comments."In his myopic vision of the Middle East, Lord Carey shows little understanding of the role of Western powers in propping up regimes all over the world."

Manzoor Moghal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester, said: "The archbishop has got it wrong. We condemn suicide bombers, we go on radio, on television, we have made statements. What more can we do? We cannot be responsible for the criminal actions of others."

torc
27-03-04, 15:24
The right answer or the wrong question?

Brian Whitaker
Saturday March 27, 2004
The Guardian

Amid the furore over the former Archbishop of Canterbury's remarks about under-achieving Muslims, experts on the Islamic world said yesterday that he was partly right but had failed to understand the problem and had ignored some important achievements - including several Nobel prizes.

Lord Carey's argument differed slightly from that of Robert Kilroy-Silk, whose BBC chatshow was axed in January after he claimed in a Sunday Express column that Arabs had contributed nothing to civilisation.

Unlike Mr Kilroy-Silk, Lord Carey acknowledged the historical contribution of Muslims (who include most Arabs) but claimed they had not achieved anything significant more recently.

He said: "Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the west many of the treasures of Greek thought, the beginnings of calculus, Aristotelian thought during the period known in the west as the dark ages, it is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries."

Basil Mustafa, a fellow at the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, said: "It's partly true, but it depends if you are comparing it with the achievements of the more advanced nations.

"Why single out Muslims? I don't think Muslim nations are any different from those in Africa or Latin America. Colonial rule left them in ruins in some cases."

Ziauddin Sardar, a Muslim writer and critic, accused Lord Carey of blaming the victims. "In the last two centuries many Muslim coun tries have been colonised, they have had their resources raped, their institutions of learning closed and their medicine outlawed," he said.

"In Indonesia, locals were not allowed to go to universities until 1955. How were these people supposed to make discoveries?"

The first person from a Muslim country to win a Nobel prize was the Pakistani physicist Abdus Salam in 1979 - though like many scientists, he worked outside his home country. After graduating at Punjab University, he took a PhD at Cambridge and later became professor of theoretical physics at Imperial College, London.

Egyptian-born Ahmed Zewail won a Nobel prize for chemistry in 1999, but he lives and works in California.

A lot of scientific research is carried out in the Muslim world, according to Jamil Sherif, secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain's research committee. He said: "At the University of Karachi a lot of work has gone into organic chemistry because the cost of the scientific infrastructure isn't excessive, while a lot of high physics research is problematic, even in Europe."

Universities in the Muslim world are often less well-endowed than in the west. "Historically they have received waqf (Islamic charity) funding but many of these funds have been abolished over the years," Mr Sherif said.

The Arab and Islamic world is also losing talent to the US and Europe. According to the UN Human Development Report of 2003, about 25% of the 300,000 graduates from Arab universities in 1995-1996 migrated abroad.

One field where Muslims often excel is architecture, Mr Sherif said.

Iraqi-born Zaha Hadid this month won the Pritzker prize - the world's highest architectural award.

Based in London, she is one of the chief proponents of the deconstructivist school and has designed numerous buildings around the world, including the new Cardiff opera house and the contemporary arts centre in Cincinnati, Ohio. Her biggest project of all is Singapore's silicon valley, a hi-tech city which will cost £10bn and take 20 years to build.

In the arts, Lord Carey's suggestion that authoritarian regimes hamper achievement probably has some weight - though it did not stop Naguib Mahfouz, the celebrated Egyptian novelist, from winning a Nobel prize for literature in 1988.

Iran has a flourishing film industry, although many of the best films by Arab producers have been funded abroad and some have never been shown in their own country.

But Mr Sardar wondered whose fault that was.

"Who is keeping these despots in place?" he asked. "Who is going to Libya and saluting Colonel Gadafy? Who imposed the Shah on Iran and Suharto on Indonesia?"

nl-x
27-03-04, 15:32
Torc, ik ga die bullcrap echt niet even helemaal lezen.

Schrijf zelf maar een stukje en wacht op een antwoord.

En om je alvast voor te zijn. Begin jij maar met wat het Christendom de wereld heeft bijgedragen de afgelopen paar honder jaar.

nlx

torc
27-03-04, 15:38
dit is geen 'aanval'..., hoe kom je daar nou weer bij ? dit is een discussie die nu gaande is.

jaja
27-03-04, 15:44
Geplaatst door nl-x
Torc, ik ga die bullcrap echt niet even helemaal lezen.

Schrijf zelf maar een stukje en wacht op een antwoord.

En om je alvast voor te zijn. Begin jij maar met wat het Christendom de wereld heeft bijgedragen de afgelopen paar honder jaar.

nlx he ja .. sterk argument. Als je het verhaal gelezen had, had je gezien dat er redelijk wat variatie in het geheel zit, inclusief een hap snap opsomming van islamitische nobelprijzen en nog veel meer wetenswaardigs.

Julien
27-03-04, 15:46
ik ben slecht in engels, kan dit niet vertaald worden ofzo? :(

jaja
27-03-04, 15:53
Former archbishop lays into Islamic culture

Lord Carey, the former archbishop of Canterbury, has launched a trenchant attack on Islamic culture, saying it was authoritarian, inflexible and under-achieving. In a speech that will upset sensitive relations between the faiths, he denounced moderate Muslims for failing unequivocally to condemn the "evil" of suicide bombers. He attacked the "glaring absence" of democracy in Muslim countries, suggested that they had contributed little of major significance to world culture for centuries and criticised the Islamic faith.

Dr Carey's comments, in a lecture in Rome, are the most forthright by a senior Church leader. He was speaking on the eve of a seminar of Christian and Muslim scholars in New York, led by his successor as archbishop, Dr Rowan Williams.

He acknowledged that most Muslims were peaceful people who should not be demonised. But he said that terrorist acts such as the September 11 attacks on America and the Madrid bombings raised difficult questions. Contrasting western democracy with Islamic societies, he said: "Throughout the Middle East and North Africa we find authoritarian regimes with deeply entrenched leadership, some of which rose to power at the point of a gun and are retained in power by massive investment in security forces. Whether they are military dictatorships or traditional sovereignties, each ruler seems committed to retaining power and privilege." Dr Carey said he was not convinced by arguments that Islam and democracy were incompatible, citing the example of Turkey. He urged Europeans and Americans to resist claims that Islamic states were morally, spiritually and culturally superior.

"Although we owe much to Islam handing on to the West many of the treasures of Greek thought, the beginnings of calculus, Aristotelian thought during the period known in the West as 'the dark ages', it is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries," he said. "This is a puzzle, because Muslim peoples are not bereft of brilliant minds. They have much to contribute to the human family and we look forward to the close co-operation that might make this possible. Yes, the West has still much to be proud of and we should say so strongly. We should also encourage Muslims living in the West to be proud of it and say so to their brothers and sisters living elsewhere."

Dr Carey said that, while Christianity and Judaism had a long history of often painful critical scholarship, Islamic theology was only now being challenged to become more open to examination. "In the case of Islam, Mohammed, acknowledged by all in spite of his religious greatness to be an illiterate man, is said to have received God's word direct, word by word, from angels, and scribes recorded them later. Thus believers are told, because they have come direct from Allah, they are not to be questioned or revised. In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."

Dr Carey said that moderate Muslims must "resist strongly" the taking over of Islam by radical activists "and to express strongly, on behalf of the many millions of their co-religionists, their abhorrence of violence done in the name of Allah." He said: "We look to them to condemn suicide bombers and terrorists who use Islam as a weapon to destabilise and destroy innocent lives. Sadly, apart from a few courageous examples, very few Muslim leaders condemn, clearly and unconditionally, the evil of suicide bombers who kill innocent people. We need to hear outright condemnation of theologies that state that suicide bombers are martyrs and enter a martyr's reward. We need to hear Muslims expressing their outrage and condemning such evil."

Christians, who shared many admirable moral values with Muslims, such as respect for the family, must speak out against the persecution they often encountered in Muslim countries. "During my time as archbishop, this was my constant refrain: that the welcome we have given to Muslims in the West, with the accompanying freedom to worship freely and build their mosques, should be reciprocated in Muslim lands," he said.

The former Archbishop, who initiated several top-level meetings between Christian and Islamic leaders during his period at Lambeth Palace, urged the West to tackle the Palestinian problem and other inequalities in the Muslim world. "I for one do not accept that the future is one of escalating violence, deepening bitterness and a grudging dialogue between 'incompatible faiths' and cultures," he added. "Compassion and understanding are the only tools to handle hatred and violence. It will do us little good if the West simply believes the answer is to put an end to Osama bin Laden. Rather we must put an end to conditions, distortions and misinformation that create Osama bin Laden and his many emulators."
The Daily Telegraph, London

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939832744.html

---PS: Vooral die laatste alinea geeft hoe anti-islam deze aartsbisschop wel niet is ... :ego:

torc
27-03-04, 16:00
ja, jaja, maar het is ook maar een aartsbischop he, die hebben 300 jaar geleden hun eigen wetenschappers op de brandstapel gegooid toen die stelden dat de aarde om de zon draait en niet andersom.

Julien
27-03-04, 16:09
Geplaatst door torc
ja, jaja, maar het is ook maar een aartsbischop he, die hebben 300 jaar geleden hun eigen wetenschappers op de brandstapel gegooid toen die stelden dat de aarde om de zon draait en niet andersom.

ja en nederlanders hebben 300 jaar geleden duizenden negers mishandeld :moe:

feit is dat het christendom geevolueerd is.

torc
27-03-04, 16:13
julien, ik heb het door een 'vertaal machine' gehaald, maar dat ziet er niet hoor, ik zal voortaan vertalen, cusus engels is ook leuk trouwens.
groetjes

Julien
27-03-04, 16:28
Geplaatst door torc
julien, ik heb het door een 'vertaal machine' gehaald, maar dat ziet er niet hoor, ik zal voortaan vertalen, cusus engels is ook leuk trouwens.
groetjes

heheh maakt niet uit joh ;) ik vind Engels gewoon een moeilijke taal om te leren, andere talen gaan mij beter af.

torc
27-03-04, 16:36
ach, dat had de katolieke kerk met het latijn, dat hebben ze 'gepikt' van het sanskriet, en die taal is weer zo'n 3000 jaar ouder. enz.
groetje