filosofie | Descartes' cogito ergo sum al bij Aristoteles?
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      antigodin Olive Yao's Avatar
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      Question filosofie | Descartes' cogito ergo sum al bij Aristoteles?

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      Descartes’ cogito ergo sum al bij Aristoteles?

      Aristoteles schrijft in de Ethika, Boek 9 deel 9:

      εἰ δ᾽ αὐτὸ τὸ ζῆν ἀγαθὸν καὶ ἡδύ (ἔοικε δὲ καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πάντας ὀρέγεσθαι αὐτοῦ, καὶ μάλιστα τοὺς ἐπιεικεῖς καὶ μακαρίους: τούτοις γὰρ ὁ βίος αἱρετώτατος, καὶ ἡ τούτων μακαριωτάτη ζωή), ὁ δ᾽ ὁρῶν ὅτι ὁρᾷ αἰσθάνεται καὶ ὁ ἀκούων ὅτι ἀκούει καὶ ὁ βαδίζων ὅτι βαδίζει, καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὁμοίως ἔστι τι τὸ αἰσθανόμενον ὅτι ἐνεργοῦμεν, ὥστε ἂν αἰσθανώμεθ᾽, ὅτι αἰσθανόμεθα, κἂν νοῶμεν, ὅτι νοοῦμεν, τὸ δ᾽ ὅτι αἰσθανόμεθα ἢ νοοῦμεν, ὅτι ἐσμέν (τὸ γὰρ εἶναι ἦν αἰσθάνεσθαι ἢ νοεῖν),
      τὸ δ᾽ αἰσθάνεσθαι ὅτι ζῇ, τῶν ἡδέων καθ᾽ αὑτό (φύσει γὰρ ἀγαθὸν ζωή, τὸ δ᾽ ἀγαθὸν ὑπάρχον ἐν ἑαυτῷ αἰσθάνεσθαι ἡδύ), αἱρετὸν δὲ τὸ ζῆν καὶ μάλιστα τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς, ὅτι τὸ εἶναι ἀγαθόν ἐστιν αὐτοῖς καὶ ἡδύ (συναισθανόμενοι γὰρ τοῦ καθ᾽ αὑτὸ ἀγαθοῦ ἥδονται), ὡς δὲ πρὸς ἑαυτὸν ἔχει ὁ σπουδαῖος, καὶ πρὸς τὸν φίλον (ἕτερος γὰρ αὐτὸς ὁ φίλος ἐστίν): καθάπερ οὖν τὸ αὐτὸν εἶναι αἱρετόν ἐστιν ἑκάστῳ, οὕτω καὶ τὸ τὸν φίλον, ἢ παραπλησίως.

      Twee vertalingen hiervan luiden:

      But if life itself is good and pleasant (as it appears to be, because all men desire it, and virtuous and supremely happy men most of all, since their way of life is most desirable and their existence the most blissful); and if one who sees is conscious that he sees, one who hears that he hears, one who walks that he walks, and similarly for all the other human activities there is a faculty that is conscious of their exercise, so that whenever we perceive, we are conscious that we perceive, and whenever we think, we are conscious that we think, and to be conscious that we are perceiving or thinking is to be conscious that we exist (for existence, as we saw, is sense-perception or thought); and if to be conscious one is alive is a pleasant thing in itself (for life is a thing essentially good, and to be conscious that one possesses a good thing is pleasant); and if life is desirable, and especially so for good men, because existence is good for them, and so pleasant (because they are pleased by the perception of what is intrinsically good); and if the virtuous man feels towards his friend in the same way as he feels towards himself (for his friend is a second self) – then, just as a man's own existence is desirable for him, so, or nearly so, is his friend's existence also desirable.

      But if life itself is good and pleasant (which it seems to be, from the very fact that all men desire it, and particularly those who are good and supremely happy; for to such men life is most desirable, and their existence is the most supremely happy) and if he who sees perceives that he sees, and he who hears, that he hears, and he who walks, that he walks, and in the case of all other activities similarly there is something which perceives that we are active, so that if we perceive, we perceive that we perceive, and if we think, that we think; and if to perceive that we perceive or think is to perceive that we exist (for existence was defined as perceiving or thinking); and if perceiving that one lives is in itself one of the things that are pleasant (for life is by nature good, and to perceive what is good present in oneself is pleasant); and if life is desirable, and particularly so for good men, because to them existence is good and pleasant for they are pleased at the consciousness of the presence in them of what is in itself good); and if as the virtuous man is to himself, he is to his friend also (for his friend is another self): — if all this be true, as his own being is desirable for each man, so, or almost so, is that of his friend.

      (Ik vertaal het ook zelf, maar hier nog niet gedaan) –

      Dit bevat enkele zinnen die me aan Descartes cogito ergo sum doen denken. En er is geen twijfel aan dat Descartes Aristoteles gelezen heeft.
      De meeste Westerse politici tonen zich vijanden van de mensen in de wereld.

      Most Western politicians show themselves to be enemies of the peoples of the world.

    2. #2
      Very Important Prikker Revisor's Avatar
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      Standaard Re: filosofie | Descartes' cogito ergo sum al bij Aristoteles?

      Plato was eerder. Het is waarschijnlijker dat Descartres het van Augustinus heeft. Ibn Sina (Avicenna) was ook eerder.

      Zie:

      Predecessors

      Although the idea expressed in cogito, ergo sum is widely attributed to Descartes, he was not the first to mention it. Plato spoke about the "knowledge of knowledge" (Greek: νόησις νοήσεως, nóesis noéseos) and Aristotle explains the idea in full length:

      But if life itself is good and pleasant…and if one who sees is conscious that he sees, one who hears that he hears, one who walks that he walks and similarly for all the other human activities there is a faculty that is conscious of their exercise, so that whenever we perceive, we are conscious that we perceive, and whenever we think, we are conscious that we think, and to be conscious that we are perceiving or thinking is to be conscious that we exist... (Nicomachean Ethics, 1170a25 ff.)

      In the late sixth or early fifth century BC, Parmenides is quoted as saying "For to be aware and to be are the same" (B3).

      Augustine of Hippo in De Civitate Dei (book XI, 26) writes "If I am mistaken, I am" ("Si…fallor, sum"), and also anticipates modern refutations of the concept. Furthermore, in the Enchiridion (ch. 7, sec. 20), Augustine attempts to refute skepticism by stating, "[B]y not positively affirming that they are alive, the skeptics ward off the appearance of error in themselves, yet they do make errors simply by showing themselves alive; one cannot err who is not alive. That we live is therefore not only true, but it is altogether certain as well." In 1640 correspondence, Descartes thanked two colleagues for drawing his attention to Augustine and notes similarity and difference. :159, 161

      Another predecessor was Avicenna's "Floating Man" thought experiment on human self-awareness and self-consciousness.

      The 8th century Hindu philosopher Adi Shankara wrote, in a similar fashion, that no one thinks 'I am not', arguing that one's existence cannot be doubted, as there must be someone there to doubt.[39] The central idea of cogito, ergo sum is also the topic of Mandukya Upanishad.

      Spanish philosopher Gómez Pereira in his 1554 work De Inmortalitate Animae, published in 1749, wrote "nosco me aliquid noscere, & quidquid noscit, est, ergo ego sum" ('I know that I know something, anyone who knows exists, then I exist')

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum


      Ik heb Aristoteles Nicomachean Ethics in het Nederlands, helaas heb ik het boek niet bij de hand. Zit in mijn bibliotheek in een andere stad in Marokko. Kan daarom helaas de Nederlandse vertaling niet plaatsen.
      'One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived'
      Antwoord met Citaat Antwoord met Citaat 0 Thanks, 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes

    3. #3
      antigodin Olive Yao's Avatar
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      Standaard Re: filosofie | Descartes' cogito ergo sum al bij Aristoteles?

      .
      Ha! Had geen reactie verwacht, maar daar is Revisor! Klasse, gast.

      Frappant dat ik precies die passage eruit pik die ook op wiki staat. Kennelijk zit ik niet te suffen wanneer ik lees; misschien zou H.P.Pas me een oplettend lezertje noemen.

      Aristoteles ontwikkelde een ethische leer waarin deugden centraal staan.

      Hij zag vriendschap als een deugd, en het citaat staat in het hoofdstuk over vriendschap. Niet in de context van zijnsleer of kennisleer dus. Hij schrijft echter:

      (τὸ γὰρ εἶναι ἦν αἰσθάνεσθαι ἢ νοεῖν)

      (for existence, as we saw, is sense-perception or thought)

      (for existence was defined as perceiving or thinking)


      (ἦν is een verleden tijd). Dit wijst erop dat het eerder ter sprake kwam. Dat heb ik niet gevonden.

      Mogelijk staat dat in een ander werk, misschien de Metafysika.
      De meeste Westerse politici tonen zich vijanden van de mensen in de wereld.

      Most Western politicians show themselves to be enemies of the peoples of the world.

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